Bible Thumpers against Domestic Discipline

My vanilla blog is part of the Progressive Christian Bloggers Network, a collection of blogs in which moral values influence our political and theological views in a rather left of center way. I love to wander among the various blogs in our blogroll as there is often a lot of great writing (and, yeah, some bad writing too), as well as a growing sense of community among those of us who often feel somewhat isolated in our conservative churches.

One of the blogs that I tend to click on often had a post reviewing some recent articles on sex written by Evangelicals, including an article on Domestic Discipline in which the blogger dismissed it as giving men the right to beat their wives.

I gulped. Sort of tensed up as if I’d been caught doing something naughty.

Now, she separated it from kinky, consensual stuff like BDSM, which she had no problem with (phew!). And  while she usually finds their prudishness unrealistic at best, she applauded a conservative Christian site, The Marriage Bed, which provided a detailed rebuttle to those who use the Bible to defend Domestic Discipline. I clicked on the link and read the following:

DDers rest their case very heavily on arguments that explain the authority/submission structure of the home.  They stress the need for the husband and wife to take their roles in obedience to God’s Word.  So far, so good, but then they make a rather large intellectual leap in giving the husband the responsibility of "motivating" his wife to mature and grow through the use of domestic discipline.  There are often strong implications that if you are truly submitted you will see DD as relevant and biblical, while those who reject DD are somehow being rebellious, or are immature in their understanding of submission and authority.

While I disagree strongly with the whole "need for the husband and wife to take their roles in obedience to God’s Word," I found myself pleasantly surprised as I read this husband and wife, who believe in the whole "head of the household" thing, completely shatter any arguments from the Bible those Christian DDers use to justify spanking their wives/girlfrieds, etc. And at some points the wife almost sounds like a feminist:

I must also say that the number of women that I know who are walking mature, godly, and submitted lives without DD, makes DD seem unneeded at best…Another serious problem with the DD philosophy is that if women need this kind of discipline, how do teens, singles and widows get what they need?  The extension of this philosophy gets frightening pretty quick. Why would God meet this "need" in marriage and leave the rest without the "help" that they need?  Or maybe fathers should discipline their girls until they are married, and singles/widows should be disciplined by the elders?  Yikes!

The husband did more of a verse by verse analysis of the "Bible demands DD" argument. I think one of his concerns, however, is really the crux of the issue:

It is also our belief that some are using DD to legitimize sexual fetishes.  Desiring spanking may be wrong in their minds, so giving it "biblical validity" makes spanking OK.  It is also a legitimized outlet for those who emotionally need to dominate/punish or be dominated/punished.

There’s nothing in the Bible that says sexual fetishes are wrong. And there’s certainly nothing in the Bible that says spanking your wife or girlfriend is ordained by God. Being a spanko is just part of who you are. And should be part of who your wife or girlfriend is too if spanking is a part of your relationship.

So go ahead and spank or be spanked. But leave the Bible and all those arguements about correcting her "feminine misbehavior" out of it.

At least, that’s what I do. Yet, I’m beginning to appreciate that there are those for whom the narrative of biblical mandate or, rather, biblical "flavor" perhaps, works better. Believing in the "head of household" and designating biblical roles is more comforting, more natural than my own narrative of genderlessness and choice.

Is it wrong for them to do that? If a woman feels that she is empowering herself by submitting to her husband as she believes God wants her to, should I discourage her? Is it a matter of "your kink is not my kink" or is it more dangerous?

25 thoughts on “Bible Thumpers against Domestic Discipline

  1. sparkle

    Natty,
    Being a (very) left-of-center Christian myself, I really appreciated this reflection of yours. I really believe that both ways (yours and not-yours) can be right in God’s eyes.
    A word on MY own marriage: C would never spank me because he thought God wanted him to. For him, spanking is clearly a sexual fetish and punishment is something he does because I want it. We do believe God approves wholeheartedly of healthy sexuality as an expression of intimacy, affection and mutual enjoyment, and spanking is clearly part of that for us – and separate from any sort of punishment I might need and initiate.
    You asked: “If a woman feels that she is empowering herself by submitting to her husband as she believes God wants her to, should I discourage her? Is it a matter of ‘your kink is not my kink’ or is it more dangerous?”
    This is something that I have thought and prayed about extensively because I have a close female relative in an extremely conservative Christian marriage, and out of concern for her I have had to really examine my feelings about this. (I don’t know that her husband spanks her, but he certainly could.)
    I don’t think she needs discouraged – but I do think that a heart-to-heart discussion is needed, if only for your peace of mind. Is her choice in submission a result of her own personal convictions – her prayer and meditation, her study, and her own spiritual journey – or has it come about at the initiation or behest (or even the insistence) or her husband, pastor or church theology?
    The first – if she *chooses* a HOH Christian relationship as a result of her own faith journey – I accept. The second I find marvellously dangerous and would argue vehemently against.
    I wrote something in my own personal blog about this that I have since removed, as it wasn’t very clear about what I was trying to say. But your question was the same one I was trying to answer then – I didn’t have the words at that point and was trying to find them. And it is a topic I constantly re-visit and re-examine to be sure I still feel my perspective is valid.
    All this, of course, completely ignores the husband’s role in such a relationship and his understanding of God’s plan for him. That subject is one I am still working out, except to say that I don’t think God calls a wife to a submissive role in a marriage that He doesn’t equally call for her husband to match. (Conversely, God does not call for a husband to be more of a leader at home than his wife can live with.)
    Unfortunately, (as you know) we don’t all understand God’s plan for us the first day we try to listen for it and many times His message is misunderstood. I also think it’s much more difficult and burdensome to be the dominant partner I envision God approves of than the submissive partner.
    sparkle

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  2. Clinton's slave/wife

    As a woman who lives in total submission to her husband I can say that Christian Domestic Discipline is a beautiful Godly way to live ones life. My husband has the God given authority to administer discipline as he determines necessary and it is my duty and obligation as his wife to submit to him, which I do with great joy in my heart for both my God and my husband. There is true beauty in slavery – it is a very rewarding and freeing way of life.

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  3. sparkle

    Clinton’s slavewife,
    Actually, that’s what I was saying – that CDD is right for some people and not for others. It’s not right for me and certainly not for Chris, even though we’re Christian, but if it is how God is calling you and your husband to live your lives, then you need to do so.
    (I realize I’m speaking for Chris here, but we’ve had this discussion before and he will concur if he needs to.)
    That being said, in my experience, you and your husband’s method for managing your household could be looked at with suspicion even by devout people who are not called to live that way and have frankly never considered it. In that respect, please be patient with them (us), as humans seem to indulge a tendency to resist and judge choices which are counter to their own view of the world. It takes effort and time to overcome the biases with which we are raised and which have been reinforced over our lifetimes. Heaven knows (literally) that I would never have written this paragraph ten years ago, but argued vehemently that a women engaged in the relationship you described was not making a fully-informed conscious decision of faith, but was being indoctrinated by the men around her.
    I was going to say something sociological about tolerance and conscientious people being everywhere and in all cultures and faiths (and non-faiths), but it was starting to sound like a treatise, so I’m deleting it.
    Instead, thank you for bringing this thread back to my attention.
    I wonder if Natty’s thoughts have developed in this sphere at all?
    sparkle

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  4. whenitis

    Actually, the arguments at The Marriage Bed tend to miss the point. Logically, IF a woman is commanded to submit (true, repeatedly), and IF God allows the rod on adults without it being sin (also true, repeatedly), THEN a command to submit to the rod would not be sinful.
    The Marriage Bed website ignores this and quite a few other arguments, primarily leaving the logical arguments in favor of vague feelings-oriented ones and ones with serious problems or counter-arguments.
    The best argument against DD that I know of is roughly as follows: It is not commanded by God, so at best it is “acceptable”. HOWEVER, it is presently illegal. Therefore to do an illegal thing, that God did not specifically command, would be wrong due to the principle of government authority. After all, we are to obey government unless it contradicts God … and yet, since DD isn’t commanded, it’s not something set against the government.
    However, be careful using it. It has at least two weaknesses. First, it assumes DD would be NOT sinful in a different legal situation. Second, it can be argued that government is overstepping it’s bounds by trying to regulate marriage – that the marriage covenant is primary to the two. Anyway you get the point, DD is not so easily defeated from a logical standpoint with the basic assumption of Christianity (or Islam, for that matter).

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  5. Natty

    Nope, can’t say that my thoughts have changed from where they were a year ago. My generally feeling is that those who practice CDD would most likely have the same sort of kink you and I have, sparkle, but prefer to use some sort of biblical narrative or flavoring to make the kink more palatable. Of course, I’m probably being a bit arrogant in making that assumption as I can’t see their heart and know their spiritual path, etc. But, well, I can live being called arrogant. 😉
    I think the key is simply that Clinton’s slave/wife (which, I’m at a loss to know WHERE in the New Testament being a wife is equated with slavery — but that’s just me) states that CDD is *a* beautiful, godly way to live ones life. Most Christians find that there are other ways to live a beautiful, godly life — mutual submission being the most common (see Ephesians 5).
    Regarding the Marriage Bed’s faulty logic, my personal favorite was about “Why would God meet this “need” in marriage and leave the rest without the “help” that they need?” Well, why did God create bubonic plague or mosquitoes? Why does God allow needed fathers and mothers to die? Faith has a lot about it that is illogical and trying to explain that God wouldn’t allow something because he hasn’t created it perfectly dissolves into sooo many problems. But then personally, I think most of their fundamentalist theology rests on faulty logic.

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  6. somebody else

    I have enjoyed reading your comments, and especially appreciate your humble attitudes. It’s refreshing to read something from a Christian that doesn’t take a holier-than-thou, I-know-best, my-revelation-is-the-right-one tack.
    Having said that, I’d like to add something to the discussion from my own life. I am a former Christian, and my husband is a never-was-one. We have adopted a DD lifestyle after much soul-searching. I am not kinky in that way, and spankings hurt – but isn’t that the point?
    I have made my husband’s life miserable through my own attitudes and behaviors, and it took me a long time to see this. Books such as The Surrendered Wife and The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands have helped enormously.
    I have tried unsuccessfully to change these things in myself. I knew there had to be something that could break my bad habits and form good ones. I researched the Internet and learned about DD. When I approached my husband with the idea, he was leery of doing such a thing. But one site in particular explained better than I could my need for an authority outside my own.
    I thought back to my own undisciplined childhood and the fact that I did spank my own children (as well as employ time-outs, etc.). I can remember so many times saying they were “asking for a spanking.” I can also remember how stressed out they were beforehand and how calm afterwards.
    A spanking or some time in the corner will not do any harm. It is a short, sharp shock that reminds me that I am not the boss in my home, and that there are consequences for my actions. I cannot willfully “do my own thing” when it hurts someone else or myself.
    I dread a spanking when I know it’s coming, it hurts while it’s happening, I’m not the least bit turned on by it, but when it’s over and I’ve had a good cry, apologized to my husband, and been held tenderly in his arms, I know I am safe and loved, and my world cannot spin out of control.
    As time goes on, I need fewer spankings, which must mean they’re working and I am changing into someone who is more stable, thoughtful, loving and self-controlled. I guess I’m just now getting the discipline (and I don’t mean just punishment here) that I never got as a child, and that I am finally “growing up” in the truest sense of the word.
    I am grateful to my husband for doing something neither of us enjoy, because it has enriched our marriage and brought peace and serenity to our home.
    Just my two cents.

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  7. TC

    Look, it’s like this for me, for whatever reason as long as I can remember the idea of spanking a cute girl has always been my primary sexual desire.
    I am a Christian.
    In my youth I gave every girl I knew and could manipulate into birthday spankings, initiations of some sort or anything I could think of.
    Once married I thought having regular sex would take care of all those urges. NOPE!!
    I downloaded spanking pictures, and hooked up with women that would let me spank them for fear of admitting the deepest truth to my virgin wife.
    I got in some trouble and was even kicked out of a church for my indiscretions. Along with other tragic events that happened in my life and a marriage on the rocks, drug abuse, alcoholism and other things I finally shared my inner most feelings on the matter of spanking to my wife.
    She agreed to allow me to have my way with her beautiful behind. From that time on everything changed. This is a true testimony.
    Nobody and nothing affects me, because every night I come home and play my games and spank my beautiful virgin bride, sometimes till she cries other times not. But always ending in the most amazing sexual encounters I could ask for. I am complete!
    All I can say is that I am married to the most beautiful, submissive, caring, sacrificial person I’ve ever known. She freed me and empowered me with her willingness to accept my fetish. She doesn’t get off on it at all, not one bit; it is a sacrifice of her flesh for my pleasure pure and simple.
    Is it the ultimate in Christian living? NO. Is it the ideal textbook Christian marriage? NO! But is our marriage strong? YEEEESSSSSS!!!!!! Resoundingly more so than any I know. I don’t even consider looking at anyone else.
    Do I desire to be “normal” hmmmmmm yes? NO! Ok yes I do but, God has blessed me and I am satisfied in everyway. As I get older I’m sure these urges will fade. But at this time in my life my wife’s willingness to offer herself to me is my tower of strength in my day-to-day temptations. No lie, just fact. That just how it is. Think and say what you want. Don’t misunderstand this; I go to great efforts to appease her in everyway and shower affection upon her. It’s not one way in the least, even though she asks nothing of me; I make efforts to anticipate her desire. Still she asks nothing of me and still I do anything I can think of to show my affection for her. She is unique in everyway, like nobody I’ve known.

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  8. Tom

    Here is what the website above missed:
    1. God said for a wife to submit to her husband. Repeatedly, in virtually every New Testament verse directly discussing marriage.
    2. Authority was never a powerless thing, merely “suggesting” things. Authority is based in God’s love, God ruling us all and then God giving under-rulership to others. In several cases in the Bible, the Rod was an acceptable thing for those in authority to use – with adults and with children. In fact, it can be argued that God at one point speaks of disciplining his “wife” Israel – God showing an example of what a GOOD loving husband would do in that case.
    In one long section of Scripture, God points to various authority structures (government, etc.). Then to Jesus, King of Kings, ruler of all. Then the very next words are “Likewise, in the same manner, wives obey your husbands…” Likewise, as you obey Jesus, obey here as well, in the same way. God leaves no wiggle-room.
    3. Therefore if a husband tells his wife to submit to a spanking, she has two choices.
    Choice A: Obey God, by obeying her husband. Allow the spanking.
    Choice B: Disobey God, by disobeying God’s repeated commands to obey her husband. Refuse the spanking.
    (Yes, there are protections for the wife built into God’s Word, the husband has to be submitted to God, etc., and loving his wife, but I don’t have time to go into those here.)
    The key issue therefore is not the husband. The issue becomes whether God is Lord of all, and whether His loving providence can be trusted or not. Once someone decides to TRUST God, honestly TRUST God, and allow God to rule, domestic discipline isn’t really an issue at all. Arguments against it just miss the point entirely. It becomes just another loving way that a man can care for his wife. At the very least, it is acceptable, even if in this culture it is not generally wise to do (because of legal issues).

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  9. JessicaK

    Nowhere that I know of is there a command that enjoying a loving relationship has to be painless. If that were the case, then God would be a sinner, since He DOES mention giving HIS people pain as punishment! Giving pain therefore cannot be sin.
    I do think that some things CAN be sin. But the NTest allows freedom in disagreements, and doesn’t force people in these [disputable things]. If it’s sin, then it’s because someone went into pride, or something, I would think. Love isn’t sin.

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  10. Natty

    Lordy, I never expected this thread to suddenly turn up in volume!
    somebody else —
    Thanks for sharing your two cents. 🙂
    I’m glad that you and your husband have found ways of making your marriage work better. Personally, I think cognitive behaviorial therapy from a trained therapist is a more effective way to bring about lasting change in interpersonal relationships, but you of course, have to decide what is best for you.
    TC —
    Glad to hear that you and your wife were able to develop the relationship you were looking for!
    Tom —
    There are so many logical fallicies in your argument, and I don’t have the physical strength to sit up at my laptop long enough to address them point by point, that I’ll simply ask you one question: does your wife always keep her head covered? Oh and when I was in Bible school we learned a little thing called *hermeneutics*. You might want to check it out sometime.
    JessicaK —
    I’m afraid I’m unsure what point(s) you are trying to make. However both Christ and Paul did find dissension to be among some of the gravest of sins (consider Galatians 5). And pride does seem to be at the center of it all.

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  11. QMCO5

    Natty’s analysis of Tom’s post is dead on target. Any Bible passage can be taken out of context to justify behavior never envisioned by God. First, there are no commandments for husbands to spank their wives. Second, there are no examples in Scripture of husbands spanking their wives. Third, instructions to husbands in Scripture focus on how he is to make his wife happy, please his wife, love his wife and cherish his wife as his own body (cf. Ephesians 5:28). Does Tom spank himself or is he so perfect he needs no discipline? Fourth, the use of the metaphor “rod” in the Old Testament for the punishment of Israel is not an intended guide for marital relations. In Ezekiel God warned that foreign armies would rape Israelite women. In Hosea God warned that foreign armies would rip babies out from the wombs of Israelite women. Definitely not the kind of rod women would consent to. Fifth, one of the qualifications to be a minister is be able to manage his own home and one of the elements mentioned is that he not be a striker (1 Timothy 3:3 KJV). The word refers to one that renders blows. Finally, resorting to the “she must obey me regardless” principle to justify spanking the wife for discipline only reveals the inability of the husband to inspire respect.

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  12. TC

    Look, this is an area of discussion that will most likely not change a dot in anyone’s mind. Still, listing individuals and telling them how wrong and screwed up they are I would venture is not the most productive approach. Especially when it is done in a manner that might be construed to certain individuals on this page as insulting and belittling. The people in this chat most likely feel embarrassed enough as it is but because of the lack of Christian understanding and counsel on the subject of DD or erotic spanking or consensual adult fetishes of any kind for that manner in the modern church or because of the fear of rejection, (been there, never again) or cliché patronizing answers, those people end up here or sites like this seeking counsel, suggestion, understanding, experience, constructive (helpful) criticism or an opinion rote from experience in the matter that might shed light on the subject, therefore to reiterate it is not helpful in the least to dismiss everyone here as simple and misguided.
    Come on! What about Christians that deal with gay sexual urges, you certainly do not throw out a statement of how screwed up they are and how they need to just change their practices. That’s nothing, its weak, WEAK!!!
    No, you deal with them point-by-point and step-by-step with great care and Godly instruction that is beneficial for living and over coming their area of weakness not belittling and judgmental. When a gay person comes to Christ they are already belittled and embarrassed and repentant. They don’t need your additional condemnation.
    With that said I am not saying in any way that DD or spanking fetish is on par with same sex lifestyle. I don’t believe it is. Same sex relations are clearly dealt with and forbidden.
    The point here is that in order for a person to overcome a sexual practice or to even live with it is something that must be dealt with in the utmost discretion and empathy. In short, if you don’t have anything constructive to say don’t say anything.
    I’m not asking for everyone here to legitimize the spanking lifestyle or the Christian DD life. Not at all! Instead to shed light in a helpful constructive empowering manner, whether to give counsel from an empathetic position or to give constructive counsel from a biblical perspective. Unless you deal with it or have over come it please do not make light of it.
    I’ll admit it right now; I’m not normal!!!! I have a feeling not one person here is surprised by that statement. Unfortunately this area is not directly dealt with in the bible. Or even indirectly for that matter. Sexual fetishes are simply not addressed in the bible; it is as if we are left to figure it out for ourselves.
    One thing I would say. To justify spanking as a right due to the ordered instructions of the wife to be submissive is clearly a case that can’t be made. There are just to many problems with the argument. It’s weak at best, just weak.
    On the other hand, if both parties get off on it and it stays within the confines of their marriage. No additional participants that is, and it leaves you sexually satisfied and empowered, not wanting more or lacking at all then what in the world is the problem. Go for it. Write down you rules on a poster and put them on the wall above your bed. Yee-Haw!!!!!
    Just be real. No excuses, or self-delusion, men if you are into your wife’s behind and you want to treat her like your little sex slave and paddle her behind and that empowers to you get with it and do your business just admit it. Don’t try to make a biblical argument for it. Just say how it is and make it work. Deal with life in the bald truth and reality of it.
    Ladies, if you are made whole and feel loved and satisfied and complete by being treated like a little girl or a sex slave or whatever and your husband is willing, fantastic! Make it happen, get all over that and enjoy it. Congratulations.
    The bigger problem to me is when you have one that’s into it and the other that is not. That is the bigger issue. A man (yours truly) that is infatuated with his wife’s behind and spanking it, thereby making her his sub and giving him the mojo he needs to in plane terms, have sex and be satisfied, but the little beauty is not into it, or visa versa the precious exalted one of the marriage wants to be a little girl and be told what to do and be disciplined when she is naughty and if not is left wanting and unfulfilled because the husband is a non-violent consciences objector to anything of a violent physical nature then we have another problem.
    That is the bigger issue. I’m not saying I have the answer for that.
    What I’m saying is if both parties are willing, whether one is and the other is just willing to go along as long as he or she on the other side is willing to do what the other needs, whatever it may be within the exclusivity of the wedding bed then what’s the big deal? I just don’t see a problem.
    I will say this from experience. My adorable little bride although in the beginning was abhorred and in fear of being spanked, (never being spanked as a child ever) didn’t understand, could not get off on it, was in complete confusion over what I saw in it, was at a complete loss of understanding concerning my desire to lay my hand across her beautiful bare behind that God designed especially for me and how that turned me on.
    Has now in fact although still adverse to the pain and the tears is in practice completely turned on by it once it’s over and I’ve held her and kissed her and cuddled her and caressed her. It is the best sex. Just flat out the best. She now admits that she is turned on by it and is fulfilled by it once it’s over, partly because I am fulfilled by it, she is also, because she realized that she becomes the total all encompassing center of my desire in that way making her feel vibrant, desired, special, satisfied, not lacking in anything not worrying or doubting my affections towards her. LOVED!!!!!
    In turn Linda becomes the over powering focus of my sexual desire, all else pales in comparison. I ignore and turn my head from any female; because in my mind none can fulfill me the way my Linda does, none compares, not one, never, ever. It’s not even worth my time to consider or fantasize about, because it doesn’t do near what I have in my day-to-day life with my adorable bride.
    That is not even to bring up the issue of my commitment to God in our marriage to never leave her, ever that is not even a consideration. That is a promise to God. This is simply addressing the area of sexual satisfaction. No matter Linda is forever my bride there will be no other ever. That is my commitment to God. My wife’s willingness to lie over my lap and bare her gorgeous bottom to me for my sexual expression is an empowering way of making that commitment not only easy but also desired and to make it a joy. It makes me rush home every night after work. It’s like opening presents as a youth during Christmas. Every night I come home and play our games and do what we do, and I am more that I can explain or express completely satisfied and lacking in nothing.
    If you want to poke holes in that reasoning go for it and good luck.

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  13. dkeithtag

    Isn’t it funny how human beings can endlessly churn the simplest topics of dialogue?
    This is one of those topics. It’s the stuff of talk shows and debates and excercise machines. It is good to have this sort of dialogue, but lest we constantly churn away otherwise useful energy and thought, consider this:
    1. Happy human interaction is probably the HARDEST thing people can ever really do;
    2. The essential tenets of law and of life can be shown to hinge on two fundamental principles–namely choices we make, and agreement we have — or don’t have– with each other (ibid 1. above);
    3. God’s understanding of all things is much better than our understanding of anything–especially in regard to matters of “godliness;” moreover, the reality of the Godhead IS NOT in the least subject to our reasoning, debate, or approval;
    4. it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove.
    —-
    submitted by a born-again Christian, divorced by his “submissive” born-again Christian wife and still hurting like hell in the wake of it. My marriage had much of the ingredients of the above discussions; As a man who strives to be Godly, I chose to step back, walk away and neither engage nor oppose a woman who may very well have ostensibly benefitted from Domestic Dicipline as above–anecdotially and empirically–but who was so abusive in her interactions with/towards me as to be dangerously provocative. Responsibility means safety …
    —-
    Lest I rant onwards, point stated.
    dkeithtag

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  14. mary

    Your idea of God is purely evil. You are all very sick and a woman who submits to this abuse needs serious psychological counseling and her husband needs some dominating in the butt by some big boy down at the jail.
    Christians are sick people.

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  15. Benjamin

    I think that everything I have read from this is intersting. If A man and his wife have come to a complete understanding after prayer and meditation and discussion between themselves to use CDD, then go ahead and do it. I will not condone though, some man telling his wife that God says to do it with out any proof of scripture or by them talking about it, praying about it, or meditating on it. That is just wrong. It should be a mutual think between them.
    Ben

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  16. HERALD of Yah

    ‘Bible Thumpers’ should be in favour of Domestic Discipline when & where necessary!! If a professing-Christian is against CDD, then they are certainly NOT ‘Bible Thumpers’.

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  17. HERALD of Yah

    It would be ‘nice’ to have agreement with the wife – but let me tell you – if the wife becomes rebellious, she better get a good beating! The laws these days are so Satanic, that they try to stop the Man from ruling his wife & home. Yahvh DAMN those antiChrist BEASTS!

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  18. Jermaine

    I keep reading the statement that there are no Bible verses for a man spanking his wife. That is a reflection of the sad state of Biblical literacy. One of the main themes of the Old Testament prophetic books, covering multiple chapters, is the theme of God as husband who loves, then spanks, his wife or wives (Israel and possibly Judah).
    God describes his perfect husband-love. Then God tells his wife she has sinned. Then God takes the rod and spanks her with it (and yes, God even uses the word “rod” at least at times, to make it blunt and clear what He is doing as a perfect husband to his wife). If you are careful and read the Old Testament, you will find this pattern repeated more than once. But it’s not exactly what your pastor/priest will preach on Sunday morning!
    So I find is amusing and a bit sad that people actually argue that wife-spanking isn’t in the Bible. It is, repeatedly, bluntly, without any excuses. So, for that matter, is other uses of physical punishment, both to adults and to children.
    Whether it should be practiced today or not is another matter entirely. But it is impossible to say that wife-spanking and more generally adult-spanking doesn’t exist in the Bible. That is an argument of ignorance.

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  19. Natty

    Biblical literacy also involves, as I mentioned above, a grasp of the concepts of hermeneutics and exegesis, Jermaine. There is no suggestion, even within contemporary Evangelical Christian exegeses — aside from those made by practitioners of Christian DD — where Old Testament texts such as, say, Hosea, are interpreted as a model for husbands disciplining wives. Any competent theologian is going to interpret those texts — and pay attention here — *METAPHORICALLY*.
    God is more than just the “husband” of Israel or Judah. He is also the father. He is also the monarch. He is also omnipotent Creator. Husbands can never fulfill those later roles. They can never be God — or Y-H-W-H (a much fuller term for the Divine than the word used in English — the derivative of an old German word for good — “God”). To say that the husband fulfills the role of God is idolatry.
    The only time the husband is compared to anyone divine is in the New Testament where Paul talks about the husband being the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. But never do I hear him say husbands are to discipline their wives. And never do I hear of Jesus in the Gospels spanking anybody.

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  20. David

    My wife and I live a type of DD relationship; the majority of the time when she is spanked it is for minor things, at best. If spanking were not a sexual turn-on for us, we wouldn’t be doing it. But there have been some times, and I’m sure will continue to be, when she is disciplined for acts that are real, un-called-for, and sometimes outright disobedient. When those times come, the spanking is given with no warm-up, and is clearly for discipline. Those times a rare, happening probably only once every few months. The rest of the time when she is spanked, we both understanding that it is sexual.

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  21. kate

    “I think cognitive behaviorial therapy from a trained therapist is a more effective way to bring about lasting change in interpersonal relationships”
    i agree 120%.

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