Sexism

I’ve decided that I’m very annoyed by people who write incredibly sexist things regarding domestic discipline (or whatever you want to call it – I think for the purposes of this blog WWD, or What We Do, seems to sum it up best). I’m tired of reading long essays describing how best to take a woman in hand, or deal with her "feminine misbehavior" or any of that SHIT. (I didn’t ask if profanity was okay … If it’s not, I’ll edit it. Or take some paddle swats for it. 🙂 I know a guy on the couch in the next room who’d be happy to oblige). Why does that attitude seem so prevalent in this "scene?"  And yes … I know there are MANY guys out there who don’t take that line, but there are a lot who do. And even some women who do …

I have this online friend that I met playing Word Riot (a game that used to be on pogo.com). We talked a lot as the game was really something to do while chatting with friends. She got a sense about me, I think, from some comments I’d made or some ways I joked with other people that I was a spanko. Finally one day she just came out and asked me and as I’m not at all ashamed about it (though I do keep it to myself in most company), I admitted it. She’s a Christian (as am I) and I mentioned that I didn’t feel comfortable with many of my Christian friends knowing about my kink. She explained that she feels this way of life lines up with the Word of God – that she feels like she’s been a better wife and a better Christian since deciding to submit to her husband’s will.   This is where I completely disagreed with her. A long discussion about the Word of God as opposed to the Word of Paul ensued …

After that conversation, I wondered what she would think of a submissive man – -one who agrees to be disciplined by his wife for things with which he feels he needs help. What would she think of the woman who held that power? I never asked. I wish now that I had.

I could never dominate or "top" or discipline a man. I think it’s possible that I could with a woman (and eventually, I’d like to try), but it’s not because I believe it’s just the way the world is supposed to work. I don’t seek out this way of life because I’m female — it’s just the way I’m wired. And very few people would believe that about me who know me from other arenas. I was the aggressive, ball-busting manager at a telemarketing company for almost five years. When we had to say what type of management style we had, I fit "Driver" to a T. I’m not meek; I look people in the eye; I have a strong handshake; I say what’s on my mind; I don’t back down from fights … But in a relationship I NEED for my lover to be dominant, I need for him to help me set rules and follow them. And if I were in a same sex relationship I know for a fact I would need the same things. I don’t submit to Dave because he’s a man. I submit to Dave because he’s my lover, and he’s earned my respect, my trust, and my obedience (though he doesn’t get a whole lot of the latter lately).

And I’m tired of the blogs and such out there that would have me believe I need this lifestyle simply because I’m a woman. More importantly, I’m tired of them catering to men who believe they deserve to be in charge simple because they are men.

20 thoughts on “Sexism

  1. Mary Jo

    I don’t want to be contrary — because I completely understand your annoyance — but I think it’s okay for other women to feel that being spanked (or submissive or whatever their term is for it) is natural for them as women, as long as they don’t say that it should be natural for *me.*
    As a woman (and a feminist) I didn’t used to think that. I thought it was horrible and destructive for society for a woman to think she should be submissive for whatever reason. But then I started realizing what my woman friends would think if they knew about me being spanked and punished. It wouldn’t matter how much I said that it was right and natural for me. They would want me not to feel how I felt. And they would think that by feeling the way I do, it was a dangerous thing for all women and for society, etc.
    So, over time, I have come to accept that for those women you described, they are just being themselves and doing what they wanted, just as I was. And I came to believe that I should respect their choices. As for the men who think that, well, it’s good for people to find the reflection of their need in someone else. I was glad to find the reflection of my need in a man who complemented my psyche, but my woman friends, who approved of all the help he gave me, would have *hated* him had they known that he also spanked me. They probably would have murdered him.
    I’m not trying to change your mind or challenge your reaction, just sharing the progression of my thoughts on that.

    Reply
  2. Angie

    I still don’t like hearing, “As a woman, I feel ______” no matter WHAT it is that they’re saying. “As a woman, I feel it’s natural for me to submit to my husband” or “As a woman, I feel broccoli is a better vegetable than lettuce.” Because I don’t like the myth that right for one woman is right for all women. For instance, I have very strong feelings about natural childbirth and breastfeeding — but I recognize that there are women who don’t care to have kids, there are women who want kids but don’t want to do it without drugs, there are women who have no desire whatsoever to breastfeed. So, I don’t think I would say, “As a woman, I feel it’s my mission to have an unassisted birth and to nurse for two years or so.” FOR ME, that would be fulfilling – but not because I’m a woman – just because I’m Angie.
    Does that make sense or am I talking in circles? It’s one thing to say, “I feel more true to myself when I’m in this type of relationship” but I think saying, “I feel that because I’m a woman I should be in this type of relationship” means you are, in some way, speaking for ALL of us. No?

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  3. sparkle

    MaryJo,
    I don’t think that’s what Angie is saying at all. I think she’s expressing frustration at *men* who claim that women – as a species – are somehow better off if they are spanked, and if they are treated in a specific way, whether that way is right or not. And I agree that men who preach this are misguided when they point to the New Testament as living proof that they’re right and no other way could possibly be just as faithful or successful.
    If a woman chooses ‘submission’ that’s one thing – even if her choice is based on faith issues it’s still *her* choice. If it’s thrust upon her by her church or her husband, then it’s not okay.
    That said, I too have felt judged (without anyone actually knowing I’m spanked) by the women of my family – not because they’ve judged me specifically, but because they’ve judged and openly criticized one of my aunts who has chosen a visibly different lifestyle from their own (i.e. much more conservative – and she’s not preached it to anyone else, either). Their comments have pretty much convinced me that guarding my tongue about how I feel about *my* marriage is necessary if I want my husband welcomed when we go to visit.
    (IMO, and it differs from Angie’s 🙂 those famous writings of Paul are vastly misunderstood in modern English, and have been used and applied by men for centuries incorrectly (to their benefit!). But that doesn’t invalidate what he *meant* to say – it just invalidates what the understanding of it has been since Henry VIII’s priests’ unhelpful translation. Like many other words, the terms ‘submission’ and ‘discipline’ have both come to mean something different from what they originally did – and in this case, that has had vastly unfortunate results that have perpetuated over the recent centuries.
    I could probably write an entire book on what the classical theological definition of submission vs. the current dictionary definition of submission, but I won’t because it’s not the proper place for the discussion. But here’s one sentence on the subject by Richard J. Foster (“Celebration of Discipline”, Harper & Row, 1978): “Of all the Spiritual Disciplines none has been more abused than the Discipline of submission. Somehow the human species has an extraordinary knack for taking the best teaching and turning it to the worst ends.”
    sparkle
    (Angie, you can delete this comment if it annoys you. I won’t get mad! 🙂

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  4. Invidia

    Why would you allow someone else’s lifestyle choices to bother you so much?
    I am all about letting everyone chose a lifestyle that works for them, and then leaving them to live it. And heck, if that means that in their home/community women are inferiror and subordinate, so be it! It has *nothing* to do with me and what’s right in my home/community.
    Not only do I believe that people should have the right to make the choices that work best for them, I am also a huge proponent of free speech – so I believe they should be allowed to talk all about it on their blogs and in their online gaming chats, and wherever else people gather.
    It’s actually a very liberating way to view the world. People today spend so much time and energy being offended and sensitive about things that don’t even effect them, when they are free to make their own choices and be happy instead.
    Sexism, schmexism! As they said in The Matrix, “Free your mind.”
    Best Blessings,

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  5. Mija

    I’m probably projecting a bit here, but Angie’s comments strike a real chord with me. One of my biggest difficulties in accepting my submissive side has been comments from some men (and yes, women) in the kink that they feel female submissiveness reflects the natural and beautiful role of women in relation to men. Still others have commented about Pablo disciplining me (and my acceptance of that) that if more women were like me (and more men like him) there wouldn’t be so many divorces now. Add to that for me the comment that “Latina women are so much more traditional/submissive/understanding (blahblah) than American” and you have the jist of way too many on-line conversations.
    That’s generally followed with a dig on “the feminists” (aside: I’m a feminist myself and know many of them and the idea that they form a single collective body of opinion reflects a lack of experience with feminism, but that’s another issue) that I’m expected to agree with. That this site could be seen in the same light as something like the “lovingDD” blog makes me wonder if what we’re doing only seems different to ourselves. But reading general terms like “feminine misbehavior” or sweeping comments about “masculine authority” or “Male Head of Household” read to me like their authors are taking things much further than what works for them and theirs and into the what’s right or natural for society. Don’t get me wrong — I’ve no problem with a couple doing this for themselves any more than I have a problem with consentual slavery or female domination or anything else a couple (or collective) might choose for themselves. It’s the seeing it as right, the ‘one trew way’ for the larger society and culture that I have a problem with. Especially when I become implicated by mistaken association.
    I don’t like that idea that what Pablo and I do is seen as re-enforcing cultural patriarchy. Neither of us believe what we do would be right for all or most couples. I’m not more of a woman because I submit and he’s not more of a man for punishing me. In fact, it has nothing to do with his being a man afaik — in general there are far far fewer men I respect in the scene then there are women I respect and like. I submit to him (er, in so far as what I do can even be called submission) because I trust him and that’s what works for us. He punishes me not because he’s a man and I’m a woman, but because he loves me and knows I need this and because it’s an expression of our intimacy.
    As to the idea of not caring if in some people’s home / community women are subordinant not by choice because that’s the way the “nature” of women is viewed as long as it doesn’t effect me, I can’t do that. It does effect and sicken me. Partly it’s because I come from a culture where tradionally women are treated as subordinant and children as property. That has a lot of very ugly consequences, including abuse being accepted as unfortunate, but part of the way some men/families are.
    I’m free to make my own choices, including to consent to what would otherwise be abuse. I’m also free to withdraw that consent and expect that choice to be respected too. That knowlege makes me hurt more for those women without that freedom, who have no choices. I’m angry when I realize that what Pablo and I are doing is being interpreted as supporting a veiw of the world where men control women by virtue of being male. It’s not what I believe, it’s not what we as a couple are about. It’s like hearing that because we’re straight (well, kinda) and married we’re supporting the idea that only hetrosexuals should be allowed to marry.
    Okay, I think I’ve probably ranted more than long enough.
    Invidia, I’ve probably been a little too direct here. I’ve really appreciated your comments and don’t mean to seem like I’m attacking you personally or even taking issue with your remarks. This has just been a thorn in my side for a little too long I suspect. And actually I appreciate the opportunity to set my thoughts down.
    Anyhow, best thoughts.

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  6. Invidia

    Not at all Mija – I am comfortable with your thoughts and opinions just as I am comfortable with those folks who think that all women ought to be submissives . . . again, the opinions of everyone are their own and I have freedom to make up my own mind.
    However, I think it’s wasted time and effort to worry overly about the narrow-minded people in the world like those who generalize overly about Hispanic women or submissive women. All the internet rants in the world won’t have any effect on them. In fact, it probably just convinces them that they were right about you in the first place – which is the problem with fighting the beligerantly ignorant.
    I’ve been on the wrong end of many of those internet rants and I also get my share of hate mail and narrow-minded crap. I get it from Christians, non-Christians, femenists, and (God help me be strong!) the anti-corporal-punishment people of the world. I have been called all sorts of things from those within the lifestyle and those on the outside, but none of them have ever swayed me from being myself and living my own life. How could they?
    However, I do ask you this in good faith: If we, as people of kink, cannot accept the differences within our own community, how can we ever expect the vanilla majority to come to grips with us as a
    group worthy of their respect? Perhaps that is not an issue close to your heart, but it is one that gives me much pause.
    Personally, I try to accept those that differ from me in the hopes that they will someday return the favor.
    Respectfully yours,
    –Invidia

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  7. Angie

    I don’t respect people who would seek to discriminate against me or anyone else. I don’t really care if they respect or accept me. I don’t respect people who think a woman’s only proper place is in the home – speaking only when spoken to. Who don’t believe women have the same rights as men … ad nauseum. Those people don’t respect me and they never will. I have no desire to keep my mouth shut in quiet acceptance of their ignorance — I believe doing so is saying that centuries of subjugation of women is A-OK.
    If a woman is happy living that kind of lifestyle with her partner then yes, I support their right to make that decision. It’s when those same people preach that their way is the RIGHT way for ME that I have a problem. And the blog to which I was originally referring is one that I fear many young, inexperienced males who seek a D/s (or what have you) relationship will go to for advice – and they may get the idea that all women in this kink share those beliefs. That scares me. As someone who has been in an abusive relationship with a pre-man who had similar ideas, it scares me. When I think of the many young women who are confused by their kink and what it means to be a “good sub” I get SCARED knowing they will be exposed to those kind of sites. And so, yes, I feel the need to speak up — to share my beliefs, my opnions, my frustrations. This is my forum to do that.

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  8. Haron

    Individia,
    You are right, of course, that a narrow-minded person’s mind can’t be surgically broadened, and that they have a right to be narrow-minded, just like I have a right to be an extreme libertarian. (Which I’m not. But I could be.)
    Still, a narrow mind, plus a mouth, plus freedom of speech usually results in a _lot_ of noise. And I, for one, feel responsible not as much for arguing with them – fruitless, most of the time – but for making sure an opposite point of view is _heard_.
    If only for the sake of newbies coming into the kink, or vanilla partners trying to understand the kink, I feel it’s important that for every “in a spanking relationship a man spanks a woman For She Is Bad”, a newbie could find a “in a relationship either partner may decide they fancy getting spanked, because they are kinky (or whatever).”
    I mean, if we don’t say it, how is an outsider or a newcomer to know that a narrow-minded point of view isn’t, in fact, the status-quo?
    — Haron

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  9. Haron

    Angie, I think we’ve been thinking the same thought at the same time. 🙂 Get outta my brain, girl, or I’ll tell!

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  10. Mary Jo

    What I honestly don’t get is why it is okay for one side (our side) to preach, but not for the other side? I’m a feminist, on the left, and a secular humanist. I know that influences how I view my own need to be spanked. But if I were a conservative Christian, why would it be less valid for me to view the same need to be spanked through the filter of my conservative world view?
    It’s okay for me (us) to put forth our values on why this is right for us, but women (and especially men) who come at it from a different world view are preaching when they use their own values to describe what it means for them. That doesn’t feel right or fair to me.
    I process my need for discipline in the same kind of individual terms that I view other aspects of my self — all filtered through my own lens, which is leftist feminist, etc. I don’t know that I consider my need “hard wired,” but that’s a POV I read often from women who want/need to be spanked, and I’m pretty sure someone said that in this discussion. But if I were hard wired for spanking, and I was a conservative Christian woman, why wouldn’t it be okay for me to process that *same* hard-wired need through my existing world view?
    As online discussions often do, perhaps because of the time lag, this one has shifted to extremes (women being abused,unable to withdraw consent, etc.), but Angie’s example was a woman she knows who identifies as a Christian and said that she feels she’s a better Christian and wife since *she decided* to submit to her husband. I can see why that might generate discussion about Paul versus God, etc., but even if that woman wasn’t interpreting Christianity “properly” or in a scholarly way, she did say that *she* decided.
    That seems like the same thing the women posting here did. Naturally, she filtered her decision through the lens of her world view. Just like I did.
    I know it’s frustrating to be a feminist and to — of all the amazing and ironic things! — be wired or feel a need to be spanked if you feel as if you’re unwillingly being turned into a poster girl for traditions you hate, don’t respect, whatever. It certainly is one of life’s little ironies for me.
    But none of us can control how others view our life’s choices. I wonder if trying makes us come across as defensive and doubting ourselves? I don’t think any of the women in this discussion doubt themselves or their decisions. But I don’t think that we should assume that a woman making our same choice but processing her decision according to a different world view is on a slippery slope to abuse (or narrow minded, or ignorant).
    Because of size and relative strength almost any women can be abused, once, by a man horrible enough to do it. By putting ourselves in the phyical power of a man, in terms of consenting to be spanked or to be in a spanking relationship, women who choose to be in such a relationship may well have a higher chance of encountering and abuser — as Angie did — than other women. But I haven’t seen anything that demonstrates that women who approach this need through a traditional mindset are any more likely to encounter such a man.
    I also haven’t seen, in my own experience or in the stuff I read, that women who “submit,” or are spanked or whatever, as part of a traditional male/female worldview speak only when spoken to. Many of them seem just like us, submissive — to use a shorthand word that I don’t much identify with — in this one way only. I don’t think that they could recognize themselves in this discussion. They went from being doctrinally wrong on the Bible to being unable to escape from domination and abuse and not speaking unless spoken to.
    That’s the same kind of progression that people who don’t understand us would use for us — we must have low self-esteem or otherwise be mentally unhealthy because we want the man in our lives to turn us over his knee and spank us as discipline or punishment. I’m sure that my women friends would want to do some kind of intervention if they knew about me!
    Some of the discussion has been about the danger to women new to spanking coming across these “traditional” websites and being confused and somehow more prone to ending up abused or taken advantage of. I, too, would worry about any woman that easily influenced by what she reads on the web, since it is full of ugly, hostile, violent, and demeaning stuff against women. The kinds of websites that I understand are being talked about in this discussion would be the very least of her problems.
    I’ve read the “lovingdd” blog, and I came away feeling sorry for the guy who wrote all that stuff. He comes across as silly and insecure. All that generalizing about “feminine misbehavior,” as if he read one too many Harlequin romances in his teen years. As far as I can tell, his site hasn’t been inundated with responses from eager new “submissives.” I didn’t read all of it, because it was just so silly, but at some point, every women with this need creates for herself her own explanation of why she has this need, and I expect that if a woman reads that lovingdd stuff and it still strikes a chord in her, well then she has found the reflection of her need. There *are* women who think that way, and that’s okay with me, if that is their choice.
    For a woman who isn’t sure what she wants, but is more traditional in her orientation than I am, I think she might be as uncomfortable here as we would be on the lovingdd site. If she read this thread from start to finish, I think that she would not come away feeling respected for what is inside her. Someone, I don’t reacll whom, said that what she objected to was a “one true way” approach, but to me it feels as if the site authors have one true way also. Not in the details of your lives or in how spanking works in your lives, but in what is allowed to be in the heart of a woman making this choice.
    I know, as one of the authors said, that this is your place to speak your mind, but I guess I was expecting, from the intros, a forum where differing points of view felt more respected and where it felt more open and welcoming to other women for whom spanking and punishment is part of their lives.
    This is the first time that I’ve posted to a blog, and it may not be possible to find a place that both matches my personal needs/perspectives (as this one does) and yet allows me to feel that women from very different perspectives are respected and welcomed, but I’m going to keep looking. Good luck to all!

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  11. Mija

    Mary Jo, I hope you’re still reading this. I think reading through this thread, we’re talking about different things (a number of us are anyway). At least I must be because there’s nothing in what you or sparkle wrote that I would disagree with. And yes, I agree with you on the lovingDD blog. His posting of links to SSS without even giving a way to respond was part of what motivated me to see about starting a discussion site giving an alternate point of view of women, discipline and punishment (you may not have noticed this, but the owner chooses to disable the comment feature). He’s on my mind both because he choose to link to this site recently, making one of us question whether or not we’ve already lost the plot.
    For what it’s worth, I think it’s fine that all sides in this debate are seen and heard. The only comment someone can make that I’d have a really hard time finding a way to be supportive or agreeing with is anyone, male or female who believes that the reason I’m being disciplined / punished by my husband, or some other woman by her male partner, is because women are in some way by nature made to be inferior and/or submissive to men. So, as for the Christian woman processing her desire to be spanked according to her world view that wives were made to submit to discipline from their husbands, no, for me her choice wouldn’t be a problem (her world view would be for me if she extended this belief to all women, but that would be true whether or not she was choosing to be spanked). Hearing / reading that bothers me the same way reading that any class of people exist as inferior or subordinant to another. Maybe even more because as a female I don’t feel inferior to men and I don’t want men viewing me or anyone else of my gender as either inferior to or made to serve them, despite the fact that serving male members of my family is something ingrained by my culture which I choose to do at times.
    Would this site be a comfortable place for a conservative Christian woman choosing to submit to spankings from her husband out of a belief that this is what the Bible called on her to do? It’s an interesting question, for sure. I think so long as she didn’t spin that out to include all women but just her personally, yeah, sure. I’d sure find her interesting to discuss things with. I’m sure we’d disagree, but then there isn’t anyone of the authors here that I don’t disagree with about something. Otherwise only one of us would ever need to write. One more thing the six of us have in common is none being shy about voicing and defending our respective pov.
    Anyone has a right to voice any opinion, of course — it’s hard for me to even imagine an opinion I’d want deleted assuming it wasn’t abusive. But no one should expect their opinion to go unchallenged by people who disagree with it in either whole or part. My point was that I don’t see much “wrong” in what anyone else does or believes with the exception sweeping statements that make one class of people inferior and subordinant to another class. Sadly, I think that is the take in too much discussion of DD — that women as a class are made by nature to be either inferior or subordinant to men.
    I respect your opinion that, abuse aside, such sites are harmless, but that hasn’t been my personal experience — I think they have the potential to do a lot of damage. At the very least it confused the heck out of me because on one level I knew I was attracted to the idea of a discipline / punishment relationship, but the only writing I could find about the M/F variety had to do with spanking in support of the traditional family which I knew was both so not me and so not any man I’d ever be attracted to. Maybe it goes back to my mother telling me I’d be known by the company I keep — and that isn’t the way I want to be known. I think it’s also a danger because we are so close to a past when this view of women went unchallenged basically everywhere in the world. It’s, to me anyway, too easy a mindset to drift into.
    Your point about being too defensive is probably valid, at least in my own case. I am still insecure about this — sometimes I feel like I’m off the rail of everything known. My vanilla friends know an awful lot about what goes on between Pab and me, but would probably castrate him and perform an exorcism on me if I told them that I really really do get punished by him for real real life issues.
    And with the nightmare-ish thought of trying to explain last Sunday to my best friend, I’m going to end this with the hope you’ll keep reading and posting your thoughts, Mary Jo.

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  12. Pab.

    (I’m reading this discussion and thinking how much my/our friend Michele/Bookbabe would have had fun with it.)
    Isn’t this basically a matter of identifying when someone is speaking for themselves and their own situation, and when they’re speaking for others and generalising or stereotyping? The implication being that the former is (way) cool, and the latter is exactly what seems icky about the LovingDD blog.
    It’s not at all the same thing to say, for example, ‘I’m a woman, and it’s natural for me to want to be spanked’, as it is to say, ‘*As* a woman, it’s natural for me to want to be spanked’. The first doesn’t have quite the same implication of wanting to be spanked as a direct consequence of being a woman. The problem with implying that connection is that you don’t/can’t just claim it for yourself. If you claim that wanting to be spanked derives in some part from being a woman, then you claim it for all women, and that’s when you start speaking for others. It’s why any sentence that starts with ‘As a…’ should start alarm bells ringing. An act of speaking for others is typically about to follow.
    And it’s not just that by doing that you’d be speaking for others. You’d also be grossly oversimplifying things, to no useful purpose. I mean, who the hell knows why any of us might have the kink. It’s probably a different mix of causes for every person who reads this blog, and that’s great.
    About being preachy: well, there’s a paradox here, isn’t there? Is it being preachy to preach that it’s not okay to be preachy? Is it speaking for others to ask that others not speak for others? Yeah, maybe, but I don’t think all preaching is equal. Asking that others speak only for themselves, and asking that they try to follow YKIOK (and IJNMK if they need to add that), is just good basic kink etiquette. It tends to make people more interesting, too. 🙂

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  13. sparkle

    I lost the thread of the disagreement, too, Mija. That’s one reason I haven’t commented any more.
    I spent way too long composing a comment on this and then deleted it, because it added nothing constructive to what Mija or Pab said.
    I did misunderstand one point Angie made originally, but she’s clarified that in her further comments.
    sparkle

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  14. Angie

    Yeah … I’m lost. LOL Let me just say, I’m really NOT trying to tell other people how to live their lives. And as far as the friend I mentioned in my original post — I guess I was just squicked by the implication that as a Christian I SHOULD submit to my husband — I did a poor job of explaining why her statements bugged me. (But, please know that I didn’t “harsh down on her” – as Dave would say. In fact, I continued to share a lot with her, and her with me, because I valued her opinion and the understanding that she provided at a pretty rough point for me.)
    I got an email today (yes … the lurkers support me in email! muahahaha) from someone who is new in the scene. She said she prefers to remain anonymous at this point but she appreciates the discussion, the site in general, and the fact that we provide a different side of the coin than some of the other blogs. So, for that reason I’m really glad that I brought up the subject. I’ve taken everyone’s comments, ideas, suggestions into consideration – and some have solidified my own beliefs while some have caused me to think a little more deeply about these issues. This has been a good discussion and one whose time had come, I think.
    Peace,
    Angie

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  15. Tasha

    Wow… this sure pushed a lot of buttons! Sorry I’m coming to this so late, but reality has its place sometimes.
    Mary Jo, I also hope you’re still reading this because you made a very lucid and cogent argument and I agree with you.
    I’ve also kind of lost the thread, but I’d like to talk about the ‘protect the newbies’ issue. (And just for profile purposes: I don’t identify as a feminist. I’m not a Christian. I’m not a submissive. I’m sort of an independent loner, I guess.)
    I’ve not read the Loving DD site. I’ve been told about it and I find the ideas behind it pretty laughable, but mostly harmless. Yes, there are naive and inexperienced women (and men) out there who could take such things literally and find themselves in abusive situations as a result. But I believe they are in the minority. Ultimately, I think we all have to stumble around until we narrow down what we’re really after. I certainly did. It’s sort of like letting kids make their own mistakes. If their parents shield them from every little harm, they’re in for a very rude awakening when they have to cope on their own.
    There are so many more resources out there now than there were when I came out into the Scene. I did my share of dumb and dangerous things out of sheer ignorance and thrill-seeking. And I learned from them. And ultimately I think I’m a stronger person for it. I remember thinking as a teenager that, while I didn’t really like *everything* about the Gorean mindset, if that’s what was required to get this need fulfilled, so be it. I had to grow up and look at it from the point of view of one who honestly entertained it to be able to see that it’s nothing but an adolescent male masturbatory fantasy. And by then I’d found more and better alternatives to Gor; you have to start with Dr Seuss before you can read Dostoevsky.
    I think there’s a danger in being overprotective of newbies. Yes, I think they should be made aware of the standard safety practices, but ultimately they’re adults and responsible for themselves and that’s how it should be. It’s frankly none of my business if a woman chooses to believe that subjugation is her lot in life as a woman or as a Christian. And if she preaches it to the world, what’s it to me? I disagree, but she’s entitled to be as set in her ways as I am in mine. After all, it’s only a few steps from overprotectiveness to censorship.
    Right. Now that I’ve probably pissed everyone off…

    Reply
  16. Mija

    LOL. I’m not pissed off and I’ve not even had my coffee yet. It may help, however, that my moon time is abating and thus life is annoying me less and less by the hour. 😉
    I’m not interested in silencing anyone — even our friend over at lovingDD. I think the best thing about free speech is it gives us the ability to provide a counter-voice to something that offends or bothers us. That’s all I’ve seen happening here — someone pointing to something and saying “this bothers me — it’s not what I do or believe — it seems sexist.” All I’ve seen go on here has been disagreeing with what seems to be one point of view on M/F DD. Censuring is a far cry from censoring, in my opinion.
    As to newbies? Well, there’s a lot of noise out there and lots of trew ways. Tasha’s right, I made some dumb (really really dumb) mistakes, and that despite finding Pab almost at the same moment I found the scene. I also respect her (and Invidia’s) point about not allowing oneself to be bothered by others lifestyle choices and opinions so long as one isn’t personally affected. My father holds the same opinions on racism, and it certainly makes it easier for him to move through the world and get things done. I think I’m too much of a big-mouth to let comments that piss me off pass, however.
    Now, much fun as this blog is, I must go get coffee. It’s raining again today in Los Angeles and my brain feels full of grey fog.

    Reply
  17. poiesia

    I’m also coming into this interchange rather late in the day, but I just found this place from a link on another spanking blog and want to thank you all for a wonderful site!
    The sentiments that Angie expresses so well in “Sexism” are sort of why *I’ve* had a hard time trying to make sense of where *I* fit into the scheme of things, with regards to the spanking kink in general.
    I’ve been long uneasy with this attitude that is portrayed that women are “natually” submissive — and this attitude isn’t just unique to DD either. I’ve found this attitude expressed or reflected all over “kinky” communities, be they DD, Ds, TIH, BDSM, etc. For a long time (even now perhaps), these views made me reluctant to truly be ok with my own interests in spanking.
    So thank you for expressing that to offset some of that! 🙂

    Reply
  18. Lovingdd

    Before anyone gets on their high horse about my Loving Domestic Discipline blog, maybe they should also check out this site, which proposes that MEN (rather than women) need to be regularly spanked for their own good: http://www.domestic-disciplinarian.com/
    Here are some quotes from it: “Our members are mainly married women and women involved in long-term relationships. We do however, permit males, providing they mind their manners and remember where they are.” “Some of the issues that The Domestic Disciplinarian will be dealing with in our members area include topics such as: Understanding a Man’s Need for Discipline, The Psychological Benefits of Spanking Him, How to Give Him a Proper Spanking…” “We believe that when a marriage encompases the wife’s discipline of the husband, it will be a long-lasting and healthy relationship.”
    I don’t feel threatened by this site, even though I am a man and even though I disagree with it. So why do you feel so threatened by mine? Chill out, for heaven’s sake. I certainly wouldn’t waste my time by putting posts on my own blog telling everyone about how much I disagree with this other blog, or about what a poor, deluded, socially retarded fool the person who created the site must be. I would just ‘live and let live,’ and focus instead on creating something positive on my own site. You don’t improve the world by destroying what others are trying to do – you improve it by building better stuff yourself.
    Happy spankings to you all!

    Reply
  19. Mija

    I’ve really said all I have to say right now on the substance of this entry and how I feel about the sexist writing on LovingDD and some other similar sites.
    However, a word to the wise. Try not to be so easily threatened by disagreement with your view of how it all works. When you put something on the internet (or indeed write for any public venue) some people are going to like it and praise you and others who read it and dislike it are going to criticize it. I see you’ve finally enabled the comment function on your own blog so maybe people who disagree with future posts of yours will comment there. Criticism isn’t an attempt to tear down or destroy. Angie’s comments were that she found your site sexist. She didn’t say you had no right to post as you do nor did she try and complain to Blogger and get your account pulled or in some other way destroy your site. She just, as a woman who is in a M/F DD relationship, disagreed with your generalizations about M/F DD and pointed out the sexism underlying it.
    Freedom of speech…they’ve even extended it to women now.

    Reply

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